Iron Stars - Sidebar Discussions

(sidebar discussions on the things CA is saying can be done here)

Parsnips pours himself a cup of coffee and finds a seat in the private caucus area. "First off, I hope no one is buying that client state bullshit. We all know what we saw down there. If they want an independent legal review, fine, we can bring in the Exchange of Light for that. But those 'contracts' are getting renegotiated to eliminate uncompensated labor and to include caps on working hours, as well as full freedom of movement. Non-fucking-negotiable." As for their remaining points, I'm fine giving them back their prisoners and bodies if they do the same for us. But as for withdrawing ISF forces, I say we only agree to that on the condition that any territories currently controlled by independence movements will remain independent, and free to make whatever interstellar trade and mutual defense relationships they see fit."

“There also needs to be a mechanism for resolving disputes between the Chimerans and the newly independent territories,” Glaikit says, “or it will be easy to create “incidents” that lead to re-annexation. We should set out clearly who guarantees peace between them and how it will be done.”

"If that's brokered by the Exchange, I think that's part of the package deal. Plus, I think we're making ourselves pretty clear if we include that language allowing independent territories to enter into mutual defense agreements. " (edited)

(EoL would probably do that too. That's their whole schtick and I think that might be some good missions for players looking to rank up with them too. Benefits us IC and OOC a couple times over there, should we go that route)

(That's pretty much what I was thinking. Also, rather than re-invent the wheel do we just want to use Article IV from our treaty amendments to define what ending slavery looks like, rather than try to roleplay the definitions phase of contract negotiation? https://www.worldanvil.com/w/iron-stars-nekosmash/a/galatea-treaty-amendments-of-2669-document)

Iron Stars

A play by post Stars Without Number living world adventure: Six years have passed since The Scream, a psionic disaster responsible for killing billions across the galaxy in one swift stroke. Humanity has clung to life now forced to continue without virtually any of its psychic citizens or psi-tech industries that developed around their special...

Micaela barely sits down before speaking "Agreed. All of these client states need to have the reality of their situation examined and reviewed, we need to inform them of our definition of slavery and ensure that actions are made to eliminate that reality. They want to meet again in a year, probably to buy time. But slavery is non-negotiable when it comes to Greystar and ISF values."

Ivan comes lumbering in, heading straight to the pastries to claim the lion's share of the first batch. "Don't let them dictate definitions for us. The alternative is we liberate every planet. Then they have nothing. Remind them of that. Oh, and don't talk to those Lux losers. Make them feel unimportant. Make the others feel like they have a say in this."

"Ignoring House Lux feels like it's asking for these negotiations to break apart. We don't want them to fall into bickering or fail to come to a conclusion, it would be like addressing the ISF and ignoring one of the larger polities."

" An agreement of definitions seems like a solid first step, maybe at the talk a year from now we ensure that a representative of each of their client planets is present." Annie said scoffing at the word client.

As Ivan passes by, Parsnips snatches a fruit-filled pastry directly from his stash and takes a long, savoring bite. "Hey, these are pretty good! Ok, so it sounds like we're all basically in agreement on that first point. We don't accept their bullshit 'client states' argument, and we'll be presenting them with what we view as their slavery practices that need to end. We've already pretty much defined those terms in our Federal Charter, so that's done. How do we feel about using the EoL to broker and enforce?"

"The exchange of light does good work and are already working on examining what occured in the aftermath of the ExTaurren slavery dissolution. With lessons learned from that experience I think their role will be essential."

"The EoL can be of great help here, indeed. But. Listen to what Iv.. I mean General Wyke said. And get that into your arguments. They are here, able to talk to us, because so far, we didn't move on. We. Crushed their fleets. We. Take their planets by storm. They. Are at your mercy. We. Dictate the end result. There is no need to give them anything. If it feels like they want to trick us, if it feels like we don't get what we want. Uloth is but a few jumps away."

Parsnips stares blankly for a moment after the EP delegate speaks. "Ok. so, that's a yes from EP. cool. Anyone have thoughts on demanding independence for rebel controlled areas in exchange for ISF leaving CA space?"

"That's the fun part." Ivan smiles as he sits down next to Khan Artema, bringing her tea and one of the coveted pastries on its own plate. "Places like Veovis, Attar, whatever," (unsure which planets are currently under rebel control now, so bear with me!) "They're rebel controlled now. They're independent, and as far as I'm concerned, not Chimeran controlled any more nor would they ever trust their old overlords ever again now that they've seen the light. Like, sure, we'll leave CA controlled space... because we've pushed that border back!" "We should press that issue-" Ivan says with a mouthful. "Why were the rebels so helpful to us? You'd think they wouldn't want such a rebellious people back again."

"Another yes from EP. Grand." Parsnips gives a thumbs up, the veil of sarcasm not masking the genuine appreciation. "Anyone else?"

"My only concern is with the planets that have not received a complete takeover how do we address that delineation?"

"Areas under rebel control become independent territories. Nothing new to have more than one entity on the same planet"

"Then that all sounds reasonable from our end. Apologies if it seemed a pedantic question, seemed like an important answer to have on record and agreed to."

(should we start putting stuff up for votes in ISF chat as we discuss, or would folks rather wait until we've talked through everything?)

(I think we can do it step by step so everyone is firm on the current issue before moving on, but our UNW folks haven't had a chance to say much yet)

3:04 PM

(or silvano, which we'll do)

(Sorry I’m dying rn, give me an hour and I might even form some coherent thoughts)

2

1

(no need to blitz through it. My intent in saying something there was just to give everyone a shot, Adha didn't get a chance to say anything either)

(Caught me in a weekend that is really busy due to religious festivities so not much free time and today I had a work thing)

3:27 PM

(Also did I get this right that they started with them wanting the ISF to disband or something?)

(no, they just want us to leave their turf)

"I think the only thing I have to add is that maybe we ask their side what the other houses think. Not try to make them take over from House Lux, which may cause the negotiations to break down, but just a couple of words or thereabouts each to guage where they lie."

(there's no rush Adha, I've got a busy weekend ahead too and the post rate always goes down from my end too)

1

(sorry, definitely don't mean to be rushing anyone. I'm just dealing with a bunch of goobers at work today and salty that I have to work tomorrow so I'm procrastinating by doing a bunch of space pretend. Everyone should weigh in before we move on)

(We'll circle back tot his monday)

"I reckon we're happy to have the EoL provide a review, and I think we should insist on testimony from the subjugated planet leadership and citizens regarding the circumstances surrounding signing on with the Chimerans. I doubt there's a law system anywhere that would recognise a treaty signed under duress as valid. On that note, it would probably be a good idea for us to try and get a firm agreement now from the Chimerans that any planets or communities that want to secede should be allowed, regardless of the EoL findings."

"To try and get a firm agreement?" The Khan starts laughing. "When have you visited the refugee camps on your worlds last? Have you seen the exhausted eyes. The sadness that swings with all of these Noctua, Mosk, 'Tre, and others. They did not leave their homes because of a slightly bad deal at home. No. They fled their homes in fear, masses of them. Millions of poor souls. Go check the treaties, they will surely be valid, you know why? Because they most likely got collaborators up high, who sold their souls for a life in luxuries. They sold their kind, to these monsters. And did you read the report of the war progress so far? Their space fleets, got shattered. Their ground forces, ground to chimeran powder. We act by our standards and rules of the ISF. And we don't ask them to adhere to these rules, or to take their filthy claws away from these worlds. We demand it! And there is nothing they can do against it. So check your language. We are the ones in the strong position, don't give that away by weak language."

1

Kila stares blankly at the khan. "We may have overrun them so far, but they clearly do not think they're beaten. With this attitude of yours, you've already backed yourselves in to a corner. There is no way to go from demands to negotiation without undermining your authority, and this arrogance is only going to lead to the loss of more slave lives at the hands of the Chimerans when we fail to reach an agreement."

"Giving them any room to negotiate, might lead to millions of slaves still kept, because all we gave them was a raised finger. And if they had a significant fleet left, they wouldn't have called for a ceasefire. They are done!"

Parsnips shifts uncomfortably in his chair before yanking his sheathed hatchet off and throwing it down on the table. "Why did I even bring this thing? Yeah, sure, looks badass or whatever, but it makes it impossible to sit down." He looks over at the EP delegates. "Any advice here? You guys are always carrying swords or whatever and make it look so easy." "Ok, back to business. It's certainly worth remembering that we're bargaining from a position of strength here. We know that they know it. They can't admit it, but they do know it. We don't need to rub their noses in it, and we can be professional about it, but yeah, we're not leaving here without getting what we came for. And I'm not hearing much disagreement on the brass tacks here. Sounds to me like we're pretty much all on the same page on this." Parsnips bridges his fingers and takes a breath. "The proposal is this. EOL does the independent review of those client state contracts, with the caveat that they are all going to be amended to include provisions barring involuntary or uncompensated labor, allowing for full freedom of movement between worlds, including out of CA space, and termination provisions so those worlds that want out completely have a mechanism for it." "On top of that, CA is going to respect the autonomy of all independent regions, and will not interfere in any way with their sovereignty. What did I miss?"

Ivan stands up, donut in mouth, to show Parsnips his sword sheath is on a second belt that can be adjusted in any direction to keep the weapon from getting caught on stuff or poking into him when sitting. "The freat (threat) of more fightin until they have noffin leff and our derms (terms) are met anyways." He says in donut-speak.

3

“I’d expect they’ll ask for some concessions over the independent areas, like us not using them as staging grounds for attacks” Silvano says , the first he has spoken this meeting.

"That could be a fun little catch," Ivan says while chewing. "They'd have to promise to not do the same, too, especially to the planets we just liberated. They either admit that they're now independent and everyone should pull their forces out, relinquishing any claims they may have and recognizing the re-establishment of their old governments, or they have to renege and we're back to square one - occupying."

Parsnips nods as he reaches across the table and snatches another pastry from Ivan's plate. "I think we can agree to no offensive operations as part of a ceasefire, on the condition that they accept the independence of those regions and stay out, too. If we're already bringing in the EOL, we might as well get them on the hook for this, too. An exchange-backed ceasefire agreement is a pretty good security measure for them."

(We're talking regions on a planet, right, not entire planets? Regions on a planet is the assumption im running with, I want to make sure CA interprets it the same)

(that's what I meant. I don't think we fully liberated any of the planets we were on)

(I think we're good to birng it up in the main chat then)

8:49 AM

(Seems like everyone's voiced at least something)

(voting is posted in ISF chat https://discord.com/channels/345912178072879106/698638545782571109/1034512111612731473)

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12:08 PM

(did I miss anything?)

(think that's everything)

(Can I get a screenshot of the vote?)

1

"Seems like they're firm on this "no guns" thing," Glaikit says. "I suppose the question is: do we accept it, accept it but try to work around it, or reject it? There's obviously a million ways to support them other than by direct weapon drops. What do people think?"

"I get what you're saying, and given my earlier speech this might sound odd, but this isn't true independence and I really don't agree with it. I suspect they'd see any attempt to circumvent it as a breach of the ceasefire as well."

“With the Exchange enforcing a ceasefire, that gives a lot of security to the new autonomous zones, but I still don’t love it. The farthest I’d be willing to go is an agreement that the weapons won’t come from us, but no restrictions on them getting them from other sources. Also, they should be able to keep what they already have. I’m sure there’s some mechs on Attar that we’ve, ahem, lost track of.”

"There's also giving them the manufacturing capabilities to make local weapons, as an alternative," Glaikit says.

"They can have an autonomous zone when they agree any stay-behind forces surrender to the new governments," Ivan says while angrily chewing on a sugary metabear claw. "It's what, six days from Uloth? And a month or more from nearest ISF space? They know damn well what they're asking for. Two troop transports and we can kiss any of our gains goodbye. The EoL doesn't have an army, you know."

“EOL doesn’t have an army, that’s true, but we all know the accidents that tend to befall people who violate their contracts.” Parsnips helps himself again to another dessert from Ivan’s plate. “I like where Glaikit’s head is at. Lots of tools that make one thing can also make something else.”

"What if we agree a list of defensive only measures we're allowed to provide the new states with, to prevent CA invasion long enough for us to arrive, on the proviso some of our support fleets stick around while they transition to getting the defenses up and running?"

"It seems to me that they just don't want us to be selling weapons to people who reject their rule to the point of violent rebellion. They're sharing a planet with these people and they don't want to see the war continued by proxy. They're projecting their own previous and possibly current tactics onto us."

"I'm ok agreeing to not sell them anything directly. But not to leaving them defenseless. I think Kila is on to something with negotiated defensive capabilities. That, and they get to keep what they have on hand, including anything we provided and anything they seized during the course of rebellion." (edited)

"They might see defensive buildup from our exports as preparing a staging ground, but I can definitely see merit in providing resources to the locals so they can focus on weapons manufacturing themselves."

"They might think we do this, they might think we do that... That's their playbook. They don't have a fleet worth a damn anymore, their concerns are unenforceable. Remember that if they thought they could stall us out in a ground war towards their core worlds, they wouldn't have bothered bringing up negotiations." "Push. The issue. Remind. Them. We're. Winning. We say, 'this is how it's going to be, and if you disagree, we'll see you in another month and another two planet liberations later with harsher terms and more lower house Exemplar heads."

"They know we're winning otherwise they wouldn't have called for these negotiations General Wyke. If reminding them that we're winning consists of yelling at the lower houses to turn on their own leaders in the middle of an extremely important negotiations you'll forgive me if I decide to trust that Chimeran memory may be slightly better than a goldfishes."

"Well said. And playing with millions of lives by gambling on what you believe their capabilities to be, instead of accepting some, let's face it, pretty minor concessions since we didn't really intend to sell them weapons anyway, is irresponsible"

"I was hoping I wouldn't need this yet." Parsnips rummages through his bag and pulls out a bottle of Pelasgon's Finest, pulling the cork with his teeth and spitting it into the trash before taking a hearty swig and putting it on the table, gesturing an invite to anyone who needs it. "Ok, so. It sounds to me like most of us agree that was can't leave the autonomous zones defenseless. But also that it isn't entirely unreasonable for the Chimerans to want a guarantee that we don't use them to engage in an endless proxy war. Right? So rather than continuing the measuring contest, why don't we focus on balancing those two concerns out. Because frankly, given everything they've already agreed to, we have gotten what we came here for and I am not ready to piss that away."

"I agree that we should not arm these new independents in any way. It does not truly trample over their independence, after all no polity is truly free of each other, and smaller ones less so. But we should ask the same concessions be made by the Chimerans for the regions bordering the independents: no arms to be given there."

"Demilitarized zones on the borders, that's a good idea! Now we're getting somewhere! I still can't agree to leaving them completely defenseless though. No new arm sales, sure. But we can't leave them high and dry."

Khan Artema leans back in her seat. Visually unhappy with the current direction. "First of all. Let us not call them rebel states. They don't rebel, they are free people, so they are Free States. Now the Chimerans want no guns for those. Maybe we find a compromise. No guns from us to the Free States, in exchange for free and fair elections on all newly added worlds. For each region on these worlds to decide if they want to be a Free State or part of the Chimeran Ascendancy. If we give in to any of their demands then only if we can take something new for us. We don't gift them anything."

"The only thing I worry about is of that might lead to us losing ground. The most difficult work can sometimes be immediately after the revolution, that uncertainty and intoxicating freedom. Some of the slaves that Greystar encountered at the very least knew nothing but servitude, even when they're chains were broken they were programmed to seek orders and guidance. If we change the war to one of ideology instead of gunfire do you feel that your Paragons would be up to the task to counter the home field advantage that the Ascendancy holds Khan Artema?" Micaela's tone is even, if a little anxious and doesn't purposefully hold an accusatory or sarcastic tone to it when she address the Khan. (edited)

"The Paragons know nothing but to serve their goddess, like my sister. But within the Protectorate we do know politics. On Heras, the Houses of every major city, do know politics. If all they seek is guidance. If all they need is figure to follow. Then all we as the ISF need to do, is put the most capable politician on top, make me the face of the election campaign, and they will set themselves free again. They will vote to become Free States. Not because the Chimerans are bad at this game, but because we, are better at it. If we continue to empower the other houses. They all will start to battle for the provinces. To grab land from House Lux, that would be our chance to diplomatically beat them all."

A lightbulb goes off in Parsnip's brain. "Khan, you are a genius! Free elections on every 'client state' on whether or not to stick with the Ascendency or go independent. First one is immediate, and then every, I dunno, four years after that, in perpetuity? Not just their little puppets they installed, but full voting. We don't need weapons to overthrow these fuckers. Does anyone know if the Exchange does election monitoring?"

"That's not the kind of concession that is made at a truce talks, but after a surrender. That's a complete reformation of their government into a democracy at best, and the slow erosion of their existence as an independent stellar nation at worst."

"They opened the door to this by arguing that their 'client state' agreements were voluntary. If they're willing to stand by that, then this shouldn't be a problem."

"That should really be discussed after we know the outcome of the EoL review though, no? I'm with Ms Finnegan on this one, it's not a terrible idea but I don't think it's a discussion for these talks. We've come up with some pretty good options so far, perhaps we should talk about them in more depth?" (Sry I hope you're a Ms Micaela) (edited)

1

"This seems like we are attempting to force our governance onto these client states"

3:27 PM

"Yes, we would like to not have the Chimerans govern them in all but name, but maybe forcing our own ideologues onto them, even if via what amounts to subterfuge, is us being no better than them"

"No one is talking about forcing anything on anyone. We're saying, let's let the affected parties decide. If the agreements were voluntary and mutually beneficial, people will decide to keep them. And we'll respect that."

(EoL wouldn't do that sort of thing since it's not a contract, by their definition of one at least)

3:32 PM

(if thaat helps clear up any confusion)

(thanks, that actually does. We'd have no real way to make it happen for sure without them)

(can I assume someone in the room volunteered that information?)

(Maybe appointing a group or figuring out what they think would be fair/can compromise to could be a discussion point, but EoL wouldnt be in for it)

(Like a joint commission with the CA?)

(I think it would have to be some sort of independent entity that didn't participate in the fighting. Maybe the Void Wardens?)

"Alright, these are the options so far. 1 - Total demilitarization zones around the newly Freed State borders for all parties 2 - Agreeing an approved list of defensive structures and weapons that we can provide Free States with that wish our help 3 - Agreeing to a review and potential elections overseen by an independent body or joint commission, yet to be appointed 4 - Agreeing to their request and circumventing it by providing the ability to produce weapons locally 5 - Reject it Did I miss anything?" (edited)

(The void wardens did participate in the fighting.)

1

(shit, you're right.)

(the Paragons did not actively fight. They only sent medical aid)

Kila Stosk | Konya [Nurrun]

(Like a joint commission with the CA?)

(I think that’s what CA would want )

1

Parsnips double checks his notes. "I think you got everything, Kila."

"So to summarize we aren't willing to refrain from selling weapons to the separatist states unless they agree to allow for voting on whether to remain part of the Ascendancy or secede across their "Client States" if they do agree to allow for that election to take place we need to both be able to trust them and vice versa that there is no interference in this process. Sounds like something to discuss with them."

“That’s one of the proposals,yes. But we have other options we should discuss and vote on.” (Don’t think NMC have chipped in yet and SCAF might like to voice an opinion too before we vote though)

"Alright so let's discuss. A total demilitarization zone is nice in theory but pretty much only offer hours of relief maximum of there is any outbreak of violence, and only from stuff like ground troops and the like. Any more advanced methods of troop deployment and physical assault wouldn't see much of a deterrent. And I don't believe this method fits the compromise that the Chimerans are seeking, is anyone here a proponent of this alternative being pitched to them?"

"Not by itself, no. But in conjunction with some of the other options we proposed, it would definitely help. I'd say Numbers 1 and 2 from Kila's list belong together."

"I'd second that, 1 and 2 work together. I'm not opposed to 3, but I don't think it solves the immediate problem, it'll take time and would be better to bring up after the Exchange conduct their review of the Chimeran laws and 'state contracts'. Anyone want to make an argument for 3 being the optimal choice?"

"Fair enough. That is more of a long term solution, and we need more of an immediate response."

Micaela raises her hand slightly before speaking "The only thing I worry about is overcomplicating things. If this treaty negotiation actually goes through all the way it's unlikely we'll have this kind of leverage again. The defensive structures and weapons are all well and good but if the Chimerans are planning on just attacking again as soon as they build back up they'll serve as little more than a roadblock unless we reroute enormous amounts of supplies for an extensive amounts of time, expensing limited cargo space and crew that could be carrying necessities instead. I think option 3 of the ones listed if we push for it would have the greatest long term benefit, and provide a rather excellent secondary role of allowing us access to areas of Chimeran Space and interaction with their policy makers that might not otherwise be present." Micaela bypasses the generous libation and snacks that overflow the table and takes the opportunity after her words to sip from a clear glass decanter full of colorless liquid and grab a small stack of crackers from a nearby charcuterie board.

Khan Cassandra of Artema leans back in her seat and allows herself a short but honest smile. "I do have to agree with our guest from Greystar here. Short term has no importance to us. Because in the short term, we have enough firepower in space above Chimeran worlds to do as we please. If we dictate something that ends up being easily nullified by the Chimerans, once we are away to act, then all of this was moot. All losses, ours, and those who actually live on these worlds, in vain. Option three is the only one that gives us the possibilities to actually make the region here a safer space. To give them a self-determined future. And through all this, break the strength of House Lux, and may allow us to build bridges to the other houses. I don't say that we will ever like the Chimerans, and how they act. But maybe there is a form of coexistence possible with the other houses at least."

(do we want to put the three options into fed chat?(

11:24 AM

(or narrow it down to the two we like the best here, and have people vote for one or the other?)

(I feel like we narrow it down to two. Option one and two together as one and option three as the second choice. And then we could do a vote I think)

1

(That seems to most sensible option to me.)

(Makes sense to me too)

https://discord.com/channels/345912178072879106/698638545782571109/1035611387700985957

(Bringing the discussion back in here) (The ISF vote was for either establishing a DMZ or having the planets run an election first. In my view, that was a vote for either going along with something like what the Chimerans proposed [grossly simplified, but you probably shouldn't sell weapons to inhabitants of a DMZ] or we let elections occur to facilitate what the planets want; Chimeran overlordship, independence, whether they arm themselves, etc. etc.)

(appreciate it. I think the wording confuzzled me. Cool cool! Now just to present this to the Chimerans.)